Gideon levy is one of Israel's leading dissident journalists. His new book The Killing of Gaza: Reports on a Catastrophe is perhaps the harshest condemnation of Israel's war on Gaza from any Israeli. Levy joins us to explain why he believes his fellow Israelis are brainwashed into thinking Palestinians are terroristic and inhuman, and the hideous consequences of that ideology. He also explains that the U.S. could have stopped the war, and is therefore culpable for everything that has happened to Gaza. The interview has been lightly edited for grammar and clarity. 

Nathan J. Robinson  

I want to start with the situation in Gaza before October 7th. Your book collects a number of your reports about Gaza going back a decade. In fact, the whole first half of the book is set before the October 7th attacks and the resulting war, back t0 2014, and then Part II is about the war. Because much of the memory of the pre-October 7th situation has been sort of erased in the aftermath, perhaps you could tell us about what the situation in Gaza was like in the years leading up. You actually reported from Gaza yourself for many years. Tell us more about that context.

gideon Levy  

Gaza went through many phases, and I chose to start the story of the killing of Gaza long before the seventh of October because, like anything else, the attack on the seventh of October had a context, had a background. By saying this, it doesn't mean that you justify or don't justify it. But there is a context.

You have to start with 1948. Gaza is the biggest center of Palestinian refugees from ’48, who have lived in the most miserable conditions ever since then in refugee camps. And then came 2006, when Israel made Gaza the biggest cage in the world, the biggest open prison in the world, by withdrawing from Gaza. Gaza has been under siege for the last 18 years. This is the context. It’s the most abnormal reality. You can’t imagine. It’s 2.3 million people just closed in a cage. And you wonder what will come out of this experiment in human beings, and you got it on the seventh of October.

Robinson  

Now, I want to ask you a little more about what you just talked about: the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. You said that Israel has turned Gaza into a large prison—you’ve even used the term “concentration camp” before, which has been used by others as well. The story that would be told if I spoke to a defender—and I have spoken to defenders—of Israel’s policy is that Israel benevolently declined to continue occupying Gaza and let its people be free to govern themselves.

The line that is usually used is the Palestinians could have built Dubai on the Mediterranean, and they chose not to. Instead, they chose to continue attacking Israel because they wish to destroy Israel, and Israel had no choice but to respond with restrictions for the sake of its own national security that were necessary to impose.

How do you respond to that narrative of events?

Levy  

I wish this were the truth. I really wish so because then we would have been in a different place today. The fact is that Israel, namely then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, came to the conclusion that it was too much for the Israeli army to occupy both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, to stay inside the Gaza Strip while guarding a very few thousands settlers who lived there—who lived in, really, an ocean of Palestinians around them, on stolen land.

Sharon came to the very clever conclusion that it’s for the convenience of Israel to pull out and to change the method of the prison. There are many prisons in the world in which the guards are inside the prison, and there are other prisons in which the guards choose to be outside the prison. Israel changed the method of guarding this prison, but didn’t change the prison itself because from day one, Gaza was under siege. The fact that Palestinians chose Hamas in democratic elections does not give Israel the right to put a piece of land under a total siege from the sea, the air, and obviously territorially. Not that the Palestinians didn’t make mistakes, or they couldn’t have chosen a different path. I don’t say that, but you cannot expect them to behave exactly according to the Israeli expectations. Because they came to this situation from many years of oppression and suffering. You don't change one day and become Dubai.

Robinson  

Something that perhaps people who have not been to the region might not understand until reading your book, and that comes across very strongly in it, is that Palestinians are one community, which means that when you talk about turning Gaza into a large prison, the movement restrictions between Gaza and the West Bank are an important part of what makes it such a prison, and what makes it such an intolerable deprivation of freedom for people within it. You talk a lot about family separation and people’s attempts to leave Gaza for medical care, to study, for work. Could you talk a little bit more about what that confinement and the bisecting of Palestine meant?

Levy  

That’s an excellent point, and thank you for bringing it up. People think that the siege of Gaza started only after Israel pulled out, but Israel had this policy of separating the Palestinian people for many years. You rightly say that it’s one people, but it is divided mainly by Israel into very small segments which are totally disconnected from one another. It started in ’48 by expelling 600,000 Palestinian from their land, from their homes, from Palestine. It continued with the separation between what we call the Israeli-Arabs, who are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and the Palestinians in the West Bank. Then came the occupation of ’67, and we started separating between the Palestinians of Jerusalem and the Palestinians of the West Bank. And then we started to separate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in the West Bank.

It’s not only about families being able to get together or getting medical care, it’s about any aspect of life. The West Bank could have been their market. The West Bank could have been their prospects for the future: universities, jobs. It’s the minimum that we could let them connect with their families and their people who live one hour away. This must be clear: between the West Bank and Gaza, it’s a one-hour drive by car. We prevented [travel between the two] much before Hamas came to power, and therefore this policy of separating Gaza started long before 2006.

Robinson  

People may be surprised by what you write here, but in a piece you wrote in 2016, on page 45 of your book, you’re discussing the resistance, and you say that people in Gaza have no choice but to fight for their freedom with their bodies, their property, their weapons, and their blood. You say,

“There’s no way open to them except for violence or surrender. They have no way of breaching the fences that pen them in without using force, and their force is primitive and pathetic, almost touching—a people that is fighting for its freedom with kites, tunnels, mirrors, tires, scissors, incendiary devices, mortar shells and custom pipes against one of the most sophisticated war machines in the world is a people without hope.”

You call them “pathetic weapons.” So, you’re writing there about attacks on Israel coming from Gaza, which are portrayed within Israel as an act of aggression. But you ask us to consider the fact that, as you say, if we concede that the conditions were intolerable and that they were within their rights to resist the conditions, they had very few means available to them to resist those conditions other than the use of the rockets that they had and these burning kites and such.

Levy  

Well, first, when I wrote this, I wasn’t aware that they had this very sophisticated system of tunnels which they started to build then. It wasn’t there yet. But it didn’t change the picture. If you compare the Israeli army, which possesses any possible weapon in the world—really any possible weapon in the world—to them, Palestinians had very primitive equipment. Even today. We are all shocked by the rockets, but those are the most primitive rockets that anyone can imagine. 

At the same time, what other options did we leave them? Did we really ever treat them as equal human beings? Did we ever recognize their equal rights like the Jews on this piece of land? Were we ready to enable them to have a state equal to Israel? And don’t tell me about the militarized state—no, they have the right to have the same state as Israel, like the Jewish state. Israel never had an intention to let them have this. So, if you push them to the corner, even international law recognizes violent resistance as legitimate, as long as it is aimed against the occupier.

Robinson  

You say in the book that every hesitant attempt they make to take a different path—a truce, a change in leadership, or in their political positions—immediately encounters automatic Israeli dismissal and rejection. Israel believes them only when they shoot. You also mention in the book that Israel wanted to avoid a unified Palestinian peace partner. Could you elaborate on that, and also explain why Israel would be interested in backing Palestinians into a corner where the only option available was this kind of violent resistance?

Levy  

Very simple: Israel wanted, and still wants, to maintain the occupation. And Israel wants to keep the Palestinian people under oppression. Israel is not ready to give them any kind of equal rights, neither collectively nor personally. No national rights. This is, by the way, wall-to-wall in Israel. It’s not only the right-wingers, but it’s really a wall-to-wall agreement in Israel.

Just last week, there was a vote in the Knesset, in the Israeli parliament, and 69 or 70 Members of Parliament voted against the possibility of a Palestinian state, while only nine voted in favor. This gives you the whole picture. Israel does not and never really wanted it, including in the years of the Oslo Accords. But this I know only today, I didn’t know it at the time. I had the feeling that with Oslo, there was a hope, but I think it was a trick. 

In any case, Israel never meant to give them full rights, and in order to maintain that, you have to oppress them by force and to kill any chance. Look, I'll give you one example: Marwan Barghouti. Barghouti was the most hopeful leader for the Palestinian people, after Yasser Arafat. He’s in jail, and he will stay in jail for many more years. He was convicted for all kinds of terror actions, like many freedom fighters in the world—Nelson Mandela was convicted for terror, and many others. Israel will never release him. You know why Israel will never release him? Because he symbolized a chance of someone that could be a partner and could unify the Palestinian people and could go for agreement, but Israel doesn't want him.

Robinson  

Now, those who voted against a Palestinian state presumably also do not want Palestinians to have equal rights within the State of Israel. They don’t want to give them full, equal democratic rights in a single state. If I talk to them and ask them what their vision is for how this plays out in 20–30 years: you maintain control over all the Palestinians, but they never have equal rights within either a state of their own or within Israel. Do they believe that that’s not going to consign Israel to endless violent clashes and resistance?

Levy  

This was my point for many years. I always challenge the Israelis. What will be here in 20, 30, 40, 50 years? You would never get an answer. But the answer is that most Israelis believe that there is no other choice but to keep on with the policy of apartheid, because otherwise Israel will commit suicide. That’s the dominant way of thinking. We are in existential danger, and we have no other choice but to live by our sword.

Obviously, on the seventh of October, you saw that Israel cannot live only on its sword forever. Because what happened after the seventh of October showed us that with all the weapons and technology and the intelligence, they could penetrate Israel on motorcycles. But Israelis don’t draw that conclusion.

You rightly phrased it: it's either a free state for Palestine, or a democracy between the river and the sea. I think that the free state is not relevant anymore because of the settlements. But in any case, you have to suggest something, and Israelis cannot suggest it because they are brainwashed that Palestinians were born to kill them. 

Robinson  

I noticed that in the book, when you discussed the building of the security fence around Gaza, you argued that ultimately that fence would be breached. You wrote that in the book years before it actually happened. October 7th, from your perspective and from those who read your work, would be seen as confirmation of the fact that Israel can’t maintain the occupation indefinitely. They can’t maintain the apartheid because there’s going to be this kind of resistance, even, as you say, with the most advanced military in the world.

But of course, for the Israelis that you’ve been talking about, they interpret the same facts entirely the opposite way. For them, Oct. 7th was proof they are under an existential threat, that this is precisely why they were right not to entertain a two-state solution, because now they are confirmed in the view that the Palestinians just have a desire to kill and destroy Israelis. So, unfortunately, what seems to be proof of the thesis that you’re advancing here, for someone who begins with the entirely different worldview, is proof that their view is true.

Levy  

So, first, let me tell you, it’s not only about the Israelis, and it’s not only about their security. It’s also about the security of the Palestinians. And if there is a people who are under existential threat, it’s definitely the Palestinians. Much more than the Israelis. The Palestinians might face a genocide, and as we see now, might face a transfer. Their future in this place is much more at risk than the Israelis.

Secondly, it’s also not about the legal or the moral right of Israel, even if Israel is still under threat. With all due respect, there is international law and international institutions. Israel, like any other country in the world, must follow them. And if it doesn’t, it must face sanctions. So, before we ask whether it is a risk or not a risk, I think that the whole question is irrelevant, because Israel is not the only actor here, and the risks to Israel are not the only risks. The suffering of Israelis is not the only suffering—mainly it is the smaller suffering.

Then after the seventh of October, I'm much more convinced than before that living only on our sword will lead us from one catastrophe to the other. We never tried the alternative way. We never seriously tried. And we have to do it. Because there is no other choice.

Robinson  

You wrote in 2017, when you said that breaches in the wall will be found, that the only way to deal with the threat from Gaza is to give Gaza its freedom. Now, in looking at what’s happened since October 7th, you also argue that Israel’s policy towards Gaza, Israel’s war on Gaza, does not advance Israel’s national security. In fact it further undermines Israel’s national security. In the rubble, in the ashes, among the survivors of this hideous, gruesome violence in Gaza, for those who witness and survive it, you ask: how will they ever forget this? How will they ever forgive this? The next generation of Palestinians will bear immense, rather justified, ill-will towards Israel. That is being created in Gaza right now.

Levy  

Yes, that’s a very precise description. It’s very unfortunate, but we learned it from history. The first hatred toward Israel started in the Nakba, or even before the Nakba, when Jews came here and tried to kick away the Palestinians. From its first day, Zionism never looked to live together with the Palestinians, with the people who lived here long before us. From day one, you see that the whole strategy was really conquering them in all kinds of ways.

It started, for example, in the 1920s. In the early ’20s, they spoke about conquering the neighbor, and Jews replacing Palestinians in their jobs. It was one of the major values in Zionism. How do you expect Palestinians to react when they see a people who didn’t live here for 2,000 years coming in, first taking their jobs, and then taking their lands? What do you expect them to do?

The only way to change this is really to reset the whole values and beliefs of Israelis. We have to. Otherwise, we are doomed to become... we might be able to continue with the apartheid forever. Look at the United States. The Native Americans lost it forever. Palestinians might meet the same fate. I’m not sure that Palestinians will succeed because Israel is by far too strong. And as long as the West is supporting Israel so strongly and so blindly, if I may say so, there is a chance that this can continue for many years. Every few years there was a small war, and Israelis got used to it.

But it cannot be viable for a long time. I don’t see how it’s possible. I don’t see.

Robinson  

You are Israeli yourself. You speak to, obviously, a lot of people in your country every week who probably disagree very strongly with you. One of the points that comes up repeatedly in the book is that there is, at least among Jewish Israelis, very little opposition to the extreme violence against Gaza. You point out that after October 7th, Israelis were almost unanimous in wholehearted support for the war, with very little or no refusal to serve in the IDF. You argue that there’s a lot of dissenting criticism of Netanyahu in particular, but not about the level of response against Gaza.

Now I don’t want to ask you to psychoanalyze, necessarily. But based on your extensive conversations with your fellow Israelis, why do you think it is that there are so few people, even on the Israeli Left, who recognize and are willing to say the basic, simple point that you have made several times here, which is that the occupation and apartheid is ultimately what creates a threat to Israel’s security?

Levy  

Unfortunately, Israelis live under an umbrella of denial and brainwashing, systematic and very deep. We cannot get into all the sources of it, but the main agent is obviously the Israeli media, and also the education system and other agencies. Israelis live in denial and are brainwashed. Most Israelis have never met a Palestinian, never talked to a Palestinian, except maybe in good times when it was the street cleaner or the worker who would build their home. But they have never sat and met a real Palestinian equal to them. Most of the Israelis have never been to the occupied territories. They live under this belief that all of the Palestinians are terrorists and are Hamas.

How many Israelis have ever been to Gaza? When I tell them that I love Gaza as a place, I love the human beings of Gaza, I love the sense of humor, I love the beaches, I love the food, they say I’m out of my mind. Because for an average Israeli, Gaza is only a laboratory for terror. They believe there’s nothing else but this in Gaza, which is such a biased picture.

So, we are brought up here from childhood with the feeling that all the Palestinians want to kick us into the ocean. That they were born to kill, that we are the chosen people, that we are the only victims in history, that we have the right after the Holocaust to do whatever we want—many values which we have gotten into our veins for so many years, and it’s very hard to break them.

For me also. If I hadn’t started to travel to the occupied territories 35 years ago, I guess I would have shared the same values today. It takes a lot to break it. I don’t think there is one society in the world which lives in such denial, such lack of self-consciousness. When Israelis see a child throwing a stone in Ukraine at a Russian tank, they would salute him. They would think, that’s a hero, to throw a stone at the occupier. And at the same time, if the same child would throw a stone at an Israeli tank, they will be seen as a terrorist who wants to kill all Israelis. This lack of awareness is very hard to break. And after the seventh of October, it’s much worse.

Robinson  

It’s very disturbing to me. There are arguments over whether what is happening in Gaza legally constitutes a genocide, but I don’t think anyone can dispute that genocidal rhetoric and talking points seem to be pretty common, accepted, and normalized in Israel. So many statements from government officials, things that are said in Israeli media about how we just need to flatten the place and everyone in it. Palestinian young people are the future terrorists and all sorts of things. The creation of an environment where that level of dehumanization is accepted is very disturbing.

Levy  

Absolutely, I couldn't phrase it better than you. That’s the reality.

It all starts from the basic fact that Israelis don’t perceive the Palestinians as equal human beings. You see it in so many ways. That’s the core of everything. There are many examples, and when you see that nothing touches the Israelis, this became much worse after the seventh of October. You are right about the defining of genocide, we’ll leave it to the International Court of Justice. But Israelis hear about the 15,000 children killed, they justify it. They hear about, I don't know, 20,000 women killed, they justify it. And if it is doubled or tripled—God forbid, I don’t know how much—nothing will scratch the defense of Israel, of protecting themselves from confronting reality and from confronting basic questions like, “What are you doing, for God’s sake?”

Robinson  

Now, the usual defenses are the same common talking points. First, Israel has the right to defend itself. Second, very often heard, and what Netanyahu said to the U.S. Congress as well, is “there are those who refuse to make the simple distinction between those who target terrorists and those who target civilians.” When Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, they killed civilians on purpose, but we only ever do it by accident—it’s only ever collateral damage, and we make every effort to minimize civilian casualties. Netanyahu also said that no army in the history of the world has ever done more to warn and protect civilians.

When you hear that, how do you respond to that?

Levy  

I want to cry. I want to scream. I don’t know what to say. How dare you? How dare Israelis speak about a moral difference, or the moral values of the Israeli army, when this is the outcome? How can you say the Israeli army is doing anything possible to prevent it, when you know that the majority of victims in this war—there are no questions—are innocent people? Even Israel admits it. It’s not like a Hamas claim. There’s no doubt about it. No doubt about it that in no other war were 250 journalists killed. In no other war were over 500 medical teams killed. So many figures which leave this argument so hollow. Israel is killing so many. I don’t even know where to start with bringing the evidence, because there is so much evidence, micro and macro. You see that this campaign in Gaza is a campaign which includes mass killings, without any measure of international law or others. See the outcome. Why should we argue? See the outcome. The outcome does not speak for itself, it screams for itself.

Robinson  

Could you elaborate on what the situation Gaza is now, and what has been done to it since October 7th? Because obviously, there are plenty of reports on this, but we’re speaking to a U.S. audience. The U.S. media is probably slightly better than the Israeli media—certainly Netanyahu got fact-checked by CNN and others when he spoke to Congress, and they pointed out that a lot of the things he said was flatly false. But we don’t see the kind of close-ups of what has actually happened to Gaza. We don’t get a good understanding of what has been done to the place over the course of the war. So, perhaps you could remind us.

Levy  

First of all, Gaza has been destroyed. Destruction is everywhere. The majority of houses in Gaza are not standing anymore. I don’t want to start with statistics, because statistics are a little dry, but 2.3 million people have been living in hell since the seventh, or since the eighth, of October. They are being moved from one place to the other like a bunch of sheep, without any infrastructure. Israel is moving them from here to there without any safe place. There is no place to hide in Gaza.

Israel destroyed almost all the hospitals in Gaza. People are living without any basic conditions. You should see those refugee camps where Israel pushes them back and forth. And by the way, all of them were also bombed. All the safe places were bombed in the last nine months, again and again. Each time was another excuse.

No water, no toilets. Those are conditions that both of us cannot even imagine ourselves in. Not to speak about the fear, the trauma. There are thousands of children who lost their legs. What about them now? How do they survive there? I really don’t know. What about the thousands of children who remain totally alone in the world? Who takes care of them? Who cares about, not only their medical and physical situation, but also their mental situation? It’s a hell by any criteria, and Israel claims that all this is legal and moral. This is a moment in which words are running out. 

Robinson  

And of course, as the war drags on, we see new horrors that come from  having people live in destroyed cities for months. Now, we’re seeing outbreaks of new diseases, with reports of polio and hepatitis. What happens when the garbage isn’t picked up for months on end? It was bad enough at the beginning, but with every passing month, you get these disasters multiplying. There is a recent report in the Lancet, arguing that we don’t know how high the indirect deaths from the war are, but they’re going to be much higher than the 38,000 people who are confirmed to have been killed directly from violence.

Levy  

I want to remind you here that, about 10 years ago, the UN published a report that by the year 2020, Gaza would not be a place where people could live. This was an official report by the UN. We are now in 2024, long after 2020, and after this horrible war, people are still living there. It’s not a livable place. You mentioned the physical diseases and crisis. But I must emphasize again, nobody speaks about their mental situation. What will come out of 2.3 million people, of whom the majority are children, living under these horrible conditions for so many months? You can imagine yourself how mentally wounded they are for a lifetime. They will never recover from this trauma.

And still, we continue as if this is normal. That’s to me a very important point: We normalized it, at least in Israel, and I’m afraid the world will normalize it as well. Like the way the war in Ukraine is now more and more normalized, the war in Gaza is normalized, and that’s the worst thing that can happen to it. 

Robinson  

As I mentioned earlier, the first half of your book is pre-October 7th, and you pointed out that Gaza was barely a livable place beforehand. There was mass unemployment. People who went to the few colleges that were there couldn’t do anything with their degrees. No one could leave. A lot of the water was undrinkable. The medical care was poor. There wasn’t electricity for most of the day for many people. These were really dire conditions, even before the entire place was destroyed. You mentioned the limitations of words. I assume it’s hard for you as a journalist, since the only tool you have is words. We are talking about things that really cannot be conveyed to another person through the use of the kind of tool we have available.

Levy  

Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I have two major obstacles as a journalist. The first one is obviously that, for the last 18 years, Israel has not let me go to Gaza, which is a hell of an obstacle for me. I was very attached to Gaza, covering the occupation for 35 years. The last half of that time, I couldn’t go to Gaza. I can go to the West Bank, but that’s a different story. And in this war, really, I found that words are running out. You don't have enough words.

I would like to repeat what I said before. None of us can even imagine: what does it mean to be in Gaza now? None of us, none of our listeners or readers, can even imagine. What does it mean to be a child in Gaza with the bombs, those heavy bombs, day and night, with the destruction, the starvation, the struggle to find one pack of rice?

We have no idea what those people are going through, and nothing is normal about it. There’s nothing acceptable about it.

Robinson  

I want to conclude here by talking about the United States. Because, as I mentioned, we are speaking to an American audience. The week that we’re recording this, Benjamin Netanyahu did come and address Congress, where he received a record number of standing ovations from the United States Congress. A number of Democrats boycotted his appearance, but about half of them attended, and many of them were extremely supportive as he told a series of what I’ve pointed out were lies.

But if you could speak directly to the American people. We know that a lot of what Israel does, it is able to do because the United States funds and arms it. Obviously, there has been no ceasefire agreement reached, and perhaps it is the case that if the United States changed its policy, such an agreement could be reached, and something could be done.

What do you think the United States government ought to be doing right now? And what would you like to see the people of the United States—there has been a massive protest movement—pressure their government to do?

Levy  

I could speak about it for hours, and I obviously will not. I think that’s a major part of my job. Maybe the most important point.

First, about Netanyahu’s speech in the Congress, I think it was the most shameful session of the American Congress ever. What did they cheer for, and whom did they cheer for? For someone that very soon might face an international arrest order? For someone who is suspected of crimes of war? Who did you cheer for, and why? You wanted to invite him, that’s fine. But how can you look at the eyes of the legislators in the Congress, in the Senate, with those 55 standing ovations, not mentioning even once the victims of Gaza? Nothing. Not only Netanyahu, by the way, but also not the Speaker. The Speaker of the House spoke only about the seventh of October, as usual.

So, first, this was really a shameful moment for America. Now it must be clear: if the United States had wanted this war to be over, it could have been over within days. And with all due respect to President Biden, whose intentions I’m sure are genuine and good...

Robinson

Meh.

Levy

I give him the credit. But you cannot advise Israel or threaten Israel and not do anything about it. You wanted Israel not to enter Rafah, and you even threatened Israel not to enter Rafah. Israel entered Rafah, spat at you, and you didn’t take any measures. So, what is the lesson for Israel? That it can do whatever it wants. 

Every American, and above all, every American official, carries a responsibility for this war. Not only because the United States is arming Israel and financing part of it and supporting it in the international institutions, but because the United States has the leverage to stop it, and doesn’t use it, and didn’t even try to use it. So, this war is an American-Israeli war against the refugees of Gaza. It’s not only an Israeli attack. It’s an Israeli-American attack, and this is the way it will be remembered.

And this hypocritical expression, “we ask Israel to be more careful with killing civilians.” Israel doesn’t understand this language. If you want Israel to stop the massacre, do something about it. And the last advice, both to the government and to the civil society, is remember how you treated South Africa. This was the first apartheid state. You knew very well how to deal with South Africa until the apartheid system fell, and it fell mainly because of the international community. This is the same way you should treat the second apartheid state, namely, Israel.

Transcript edited by Patrick Farnsworth.